WW 654: I Hate Products, She Hates People

Beep boop - this is a robot. A new show has been posted to TWiT…

What are your thoughts about today’s show? We’d love to hear from you!

Paul was talking about a warning in Office 365 about the end of support for Windows 7 and wasn’t sure what that meant.

Microsoft announced that the current branch of Office 365 (and Office 2019) would only run on Windows 10 (and maybe 8.1?) and that only the 2016 / Office 365 LTSB branch of Office 365 would remain compatible with Windows 7.

1 Like

“I hate Products, She Hates People” Interesting title. May I suggest “I hate Microsoft. Full Stop.”

I’ll tag @thurrott but I doubt he’d stoop to visit us here. Mr. Thurrott you are a huge, grumpy, cat. @MaryJo …did you lose your gong? Frankly, I’m getting real tired of your 2 hours of Microsoft/Windows-sucks-and-the-people-who-run-it-are-morons shtick. You are almost to Greg Ferro level of negativity.

Do you realize when you are that negative, on a continuous basis, you’re calling the listeners of this podcast (that you benefit from) a bunch of idiots too 'cause we probably like and support Microsoft. That’s how I feel…that I must be stupid for liking (really liking) Windows 10 and Microsoft.

Before criticizing them, take some time to consider “do I have all the facts?” There’s probably a lot that goes into decisions that you don’t know about. I think that’s called Loser Think.

I’m not looking for a fan-boy. Rene on MacBreak does a pretty good balance between fan and critic.

You keep insisting that Microsoft’s claim that multiple displays is more productive is bogus. You say: “Everyone knows you can’t multi-task.” And you harp on that every time Neo and Duo are brought up. YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE MULTITASKING WHEN USING MULTIPLE MONTIORS!!! I literally need 4 monitors (my tax software takes two) to prepare a corporate tax return. Unless I PRINT OUT A BUNCH OF STUFF ON PAPER.

Not trying to be mean. Trying to be productively critical. If I feel this way, I’ll bet a lot of others do too. And they just stop watching.

There. I feel better. Maybe. I’ll now resume watching the podcast. Oh gracious. Hour and seventeen minutes left. Can’t do that right now…I’ll switch to Leo and Ant’s great CES adventure. That’s got to be more entertaining and less stressful.

1 Like

I don’t know. Grumpy Cat Paul is usually correct with a lot of his grumpiness. I find a lot of Tech Writers fully drink the Kool-Aid of whatever company they follow and let don’t criticize for fear of losing whatever “access” they have.

I’ve debated a lot with friends over the needs for multiple monitors, I really like them but I try to not tie myself to big ole monitors. It frees me up to work elsewhere in my house (i work from home) or also from a coffee shop, etc. w/o fully missing my thousand inch monitors.

I look forward to version 2 of the Duo


@thurrott only stands out because many who cover the tech industry treat it like the fashion industry, Fashion reporters, and - more generally - social trend writers - are not known for their critical analysis or investigative reporting. Paul and @MaryJo do not cover Microsoft with an eye toward being fans (albeit my understanding is that Paul does prefer Microsoft products generally to others) but with an eye toward investigative analysis.

Mary Jo recently commented (don’t remember if it was on her TWIT appearance last month or on WW) that those who do report on other companies (like Apple or Google) generally give those companies a pass on things that Microsoft, by contrast, would be excoriated for (e.g. Apple’s keyboard fiasco with the MacBook or the 13+ updates for the iPhone).

So I think Paul only appears to be grumpy when you place him in comparison to many of the others who fall on the other side of the spectrum.

For myself, while I can agree that his general Dvorak-lite grumpiness can get wearying at times - I have never found cause to fault his conclusions based on his analysis. I have had different opinions on how things could be interpreted, but I cannot dismiss his analysis simply because he’s done this for so long and has the long-perspective view that many others (Mary Jo excepted) do not seem to have.

I’ll take Paul over an apologistic fan-blogger any day of the week.


Doesn’t really strike me that way. I see Paul as being mildly exasperated rather than grumpy, and both of them as using a lot of irony, which is my favourite form of criticism. I laugh a lot at what they both say and regard it as a genuinely fun podcast because of that. To me it fits Noel Coward’s saying, which was something to the effect of “I only mock the things I love”. It strikes me more as being like pointing out when a generally loved friend does something ineffably stupid. Which, in the case of Microsoft, is not that rare an event. :wink:


Hi. I think he/we were talking about this warning: https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-what-will-happen-to-your-windows-7-pc-on-january-15-2020/.


I was thinking about bringing out the gong, but decided it might be too much for the first show of the year :slight_smile:

Anyway, Paul and I – and especially Paul (yes, I am going out on a limb and speaking for him here) – are not saying Windows is terrible and people who use it are idiots. Both of us are Windows users. We are among the relatively few at Microsoft events who aren’t Apple users. We use Windows by choice. We have both built our careers based on our coverage of Windows through the years.

That’s why we both get frustrated when we see Microsoft doing dumb things that affect Windows. We both want Windows to be great, both because we are users and because we care about the future of the platform and the company. (Our livelihoods depend on Microsoft, even if, in my case, I am not allowed to own stock in the company, given I am a journalist covering it.) We both express our worries differently. I am typically the half-glass-full gal and Paul is Eyeore :slight_smile:

We both are skeptical of Microsoft’s claims that a hinged, dual-screen device can make someone more productive. Microsoft hasn’t yet showed us what they are doing with the OS and the apps to back up that claim. I’m staying tuned to see if they can back this up.

Hope this shines a little more perspective on this. Thanks for watching/listening.


Hi @MaryJo, thanks for replying.

Yes, you were talking about that, then @thurrott said that Office 365 was also throwing up warning about EOL, so I assumed it was the fact that Office 365 current branch doesn’t run on Windows 7.

1 Like

This - yes! This is another reason why I power through some of the … dissatisfaction, let’s say. Because I know it’s coming from a perspective that wants success; not a place that is bashing for the sake of bashing.

1 Like

This is why I love the show. :joy:


I’ve been listening to and reading Paul for years and his tendency to latch onto some point or thought and really ride it hard is one of the things that makes him frequently compelling but occasionally exasperating. He can’t just say most Windows 10 store apps are less full-featured than a comparable desktop app; no, they must be called “Fisher Price apps”. Surface Go can’t just be relatively under-powered; it must be “terrible” and “a joke”; etc. Paul does get seemingly over-zealous at times. If he didn’t, then he would be a lot less interesting to read and listen to.
With regards to dual-screen productivity, perhaps he is technically correct that you cannot multi-task (i.e. you can only task switch), but having multiple screens can make that process much easier. Your example is a good one. Even on a mobile device, you may want to be looking at a source document and keep it on screen while you compose a message about it on another screen.

1 Like

Have you ever heard from anyone inside MS about why communications are so often a weak point for the company? It seems like there are new examples every week of something being poorly or improperly communicated. I appreciate that it is a big company, but the gaffes still seem more frequent that one might expect.

I really enjoy the show. I to am also a fan of Windows. Honestly the only thing that gets me with Windows vs Mac is that if I had a Mac, my iPhone would work flawlessly with my computer. However I’m on IOS and Window’s and it’s not very pretty. Honestly this is one of those things I really wish Apple would say hey market ourselves as phone for everyone and lots of business’s use them Lot’s of business’s use Windows. Lets support a lot of the feature’s there. I know I’m really wishing and it will never happen. But it’s one of those things that has seriously made me consider switching to Android.

I think we are just very vocal about shining light on the gaffes (and relatively good at discovering them).


Paul is one of the best tech journalists in the world. Full stop.

He’s also a dour New Englander. I, for one, have always loved his take on the tech industry. For what it’s worth, I always enjoyed Dvorak, too.

It seems to me that his is an old school form of hard-boiled journalism (think Andy Rooney, Jimmy Breslin, Hunter S. Thompson) that is sorely missed in this era of YouTube cheerleading.

You know he’s hard on Microsoft because he loves it, and wants it to do better. And I don’t think you can even argue that he’s wrong when he’s critical of MS. If you don’t like his style, so be it, there are many places you can get your Windows coverage, but I, for one, look forward to WW every week.


This is why I like the TWiT network so much. The presenters, journalists and other guests are always amongst the best available anywhere in the world.


MaryJo, Express Logic was actually a very small player in the embedded RTOS space.

The largest are Wind River Systems(VxWorks), Greenhills(Integrity), and then much smaller are companies like QNX, DDC-I, Mentor Graphics and then maybe Express Logic.

1 Like

I’d prefer not to have to “power through.”

I’d prefer balance. Or at least non-grumpy, berating over the same points over and over. Leo and MJ do fine.

From you I’d call it skeptical. Mr. Thurrott? Not so much. How can it not make you more productive when you need to access data from more than one source/app at that same time? “Oh…it’s so last decade. Two hinged screens put together.” I’d buy both right now if they were available. Thought they looked awesome and would be great devices. I bet, if they were made with folding screens, with the price that would go with that, Paul would scream about how expensive it is.

Agree. I usually enjoy the show. Lately though it seems to be nitpicking stupid stuff like the naming convention of new releases. Seriously?

@MaryJo I appreciate your willingness to come on here and defend Paul. I think you do a marvelous job. I believe you and Paul want Microsoft to succeed. Maybe it’s Paul condescending attitude that is getting to me. He does the same thing on Twitter.

P.S. Just because Sony sells more gaming consoles does not mean X Box lost, as Paul constantly says. Under that thinking all makers of any product who don’t sell the most, should just quit.

In conclusion - I guess I’m just the Thurrott of the TWiT Community complaining about how Paul complains about Microsoft. Funny…my name’s Paul too. I’ll keep watching. Where else am I going to go to get the information I need?

1 Like

Can’t disagree with that.

Really? I think it’s more than that.

Me too.

Yes, there is lots of that. How is harping over version naming convention hard hitting journalism? What research did he do about productivity gains from multiple monitor use? Just 'cause he doesn’t?

Yes you can. He’s often critical when they don’t do things the way HE would. Does not mean he’s right. And it’s always easy to play armchair quarterback.

Me too.

You provide this forum for feedback. Just telling you how I feel. I understand your sticking up for Paul. See I touched a bit of a nerve there.

P.S. Aren’t you still at CES?