Beep boop - this is a robot. A new show has been posted to TWiT…
What are your thoughts about today’s show? We’d love to hear from you!
The idea of “where to cut” on Vision Pro doesn’t seem that hard, I don’t know why Alex is so confused. You make it out of plastic, you take out the front display, you use cheaper materials. I suppose “cheaper materials” isn’t necessarily the Apple way, but the fact that Alex can’t fathom it feels a bit silly. I can’t imagine Apple compromising on the processing power. Specially when I don’t feel like the majority of the costs come from those M chips.
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I suspect the displays (internal, not the silly eyes passthru) are the most expensive bit
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They could reduce the processing power needed for the Vision Pro if they tethered it (wirelessly or otherwise) to an iPhone and then offload some processing to that device. An iPhone is already required for use, so that seems like an obvious place to start.
Except that the Vision Pro has an “M” series processor and the iPhone a lower “A” series processor (the VP processor is, AFAIK, a custom processor based on the M series, also the iPhone has a very slow link, it is USB 3 speeds, at best, so data transfers would be about 1/1000th of what they currently are, internally, that would mean only new iPhones from 18/19/20 or something on, where they have a custom interface to allow Thunderbolt like transfer speeds.
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You’re right - I wasn’t thinking about that part. But it still seems like they should be able to offload some aspects to the phone.
Obviously the first step is to get rid of EyeSight (those front-facing googly eyes). No one wants that. But beyond that - it seems like the solution is to find ways to reduce the number of internal components and move those functions to other devices an individual can reasonably be expected to have on them. A problem with Vision Pro, as I see it, is that it really doesn’t offer a compelling reason for a typical user to purchase it. Sure, it has great eye tracking and those incredible displays, but that’s clearly not driving user adoption. The biggest barrier is, in my opinion, that absurdly high price point.
If we consider the “entry costs” - it’s a minimum of $3500 (before tax). If you need vision correction, it’s another $500. So we’re looking at $4000 - for a base model. If you are not in the Apple ecosystem - add in the cost of buying a reasonably modern iPhone. If we use the iPhone 16e base model as an example - then that adds $600. So we’re looking at $4600 before tax. For a device designed for primary use by a single user.
The most recent number for median US household income (2023) is $80,610. After taxes and essential expenses - one can be expected to have between $10,000 and $20,000 left for discretionary spending. If we assume $15,000 (middle of the road) - then the Vision Pro by itself (base model, no corrective vision, user already owns an iPhone) would consume 23.3% of that $15,000 (nearly 1/4). That increases if you need corrective lenses or a new iPhone. If you need both, that jumps to 30.6% (or higher if you want higher-end models).
This assumes a family has no other needs (like a new computer or wanting to take a vacation or unexpected expenses).
When viewed from that perspective, it would seem that $3500 price point is unsustainable for the typical user. And if you limit the pool of buyers to only those with more substantial amounts of discretionary income - then you will necessarily limit the number of people who want this and see some need it fulfills. And, to be honest, the main use case seems to be watching movies.
Yes, but the current version is just a test showcase for new technology and to get developers and early adopters on board. It was never thought of to be a high volume product.
We need to wait a couple of years for the prices of the screens to drop (although I think the quality is still below what Alex would consider optimal 
), once the screen prices drop, the whole thing will be a lot cheaper even in its current form. Add in savings in other areas, plus a more powerful processor at or around the same price as the current one and you should have a competitive product.
Maybe we will get a Vision Pro 2 with the same screens at a lower price and higher quality screens in a VP 2 Ultra, or something, for around the current price…
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Great recommendation of Common Ground by Alex. It’s universally available on Amazon Prime. That documentary hadn’t made it to my radar. I’ll watch today or tomorrow.
Glyphosate toxicity testing for humans is an interesting and twisted story–worth understanding. Besides animal testing, lab tests were performed on human liver cells in vitro. A solution containing glyphosate was tested on the cells and titrated until a concentration affecting the cells was found. Bingo – you’ve got your toxicity level.
Was this test sufficient? Glyphosate inhibits the production of three amino acids, but they are not part of animal metabolism. Those aromatic amino acids are essential for plants, fungi, and and for bacteria–including “good” gut bacteria. When those toxicity tests were done on humans, any impact on our gut biome was never tested. We didn’t understand the complex interaction between our gut and health in those days.
I learned about the impact of glyphosate on our gut from MIT AI Lab (MIT CSAIL) researcher Stephanie Seneff. She has claimed a link between glyphosate and autism; I am neutral on that particular issue. What I can say is that the impact of that chemical on our gut bacteria–and gut health overall–is unquestionable. It’s noteworthy that the Wikipedia article doesn’t even mention anything about gut bacteria. Seneff is mentioned in the Wikipedia article with a “fact checking” reference from a blog. Many comment about how AIs will hallucinate and that their output should always be treated with skepticism. The exact same thing applies to the Wikipedia. While a high percentage of the articles are spot on; a small minority go off onto hallucinatory rants. As sources of objective truth, both are fundamentally flawed. The OG Encyclopedia Britannica was far better for that purpose. Cogitator, cave!
Besides being used as a herbicide, glyphosate is widely used as a desiccant. It’s used is because the chemical is cheap. That’s crazy! I can imagine worse compounds to use as a desiccant, but I would have to think for a very long time to come up with one. The Europeans have this one right: it’s time to stop using this chemical on our crops.
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I’m not entirely convinced of that. If it was truly aimed at developers, then they would require you to have a developer account with them (like they did with those dev kit ARM devices they made available back in 2020 in the lead up to the M1 release). I think Apple has said that to keep expectations low for the device. But even if it is - it doesn’t seem to be achieving that goal of getting developers on-board. At least not in any significant numbers.
Let’s say you are correct, and this is a seed product to build interest in preparation for a more mainstream device. They are still going to have to bring the cost down substantially to fit into the budget of a typical consumer. Even at half today’s price - that’s still almost $1800 minimum for a device that requires an iPhone and is essentially single user (guest mode notwithstanding). And those corrective lenses aren’t likely to get cheaper, even if the VPro does. It wouldn’t be the most expensive ‘accessory’ that Apple has made (that’s reserved for the gold Apple Watch), but it would still be up there.
So - back to the question: What could they do? If they ditch the M1 processor on the device and shift processing entirely to the iPhone, that might work. Remove the EyeSight feature, Essentially - turn it into a spatially aware monitor with a headset form-factor. It might require them to move the iPhone processor from the A-series to the M-series (like they’ve done with some iPads), but it would give them the processing power they seem to need, plus it would make that power available for other things - like Apple Intelligence.
Just some thoughts.
OLEDs were for years the domain of $50,000+ TV showcases at CES, then they moved into high-end phones and laptops over $2,000 and now they are starting to appear cheaper phones and laptops and affordable TVs.
It is the same with the displays in the Vision Pro, they are 1st or 2nd generation displays of a new, very expensive technique to produce high definition displays in such small screens. As the manufacturing process matures, the prices will fall to more acceptable levels as the process matures and bin rates drop.
(it maybe that Apple had the first generation displays in the prototypes, but thei screens were north of $10,000 and now the process has matured to a stage where they only cost $1,300 or so each), when the process matures further and they drop to under $500 each, the device starts to become more affordable. I don’t know what the exact pricing is, so this a just guess figures, but the parallel to LCD, TFT and OLED is the same, they start off way to expensive for normal consumers and the prices fall until they hit the mainstream.)
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At the end of the segment, they were talking about glasses. My glasses cost around 1,200€ and I try to hold onto them as long as possible. I got my current ones about a month ago, replacing my 2019 glasses.
I could finally preside my optician to correct both eyes fully, something they have resisted until now, because my good eye needs minimal correction and my bad eye needs very heavy correction (to the extent that one lens is thinner than the frame and the other thicker) and they try not to exceed 1,5 diopters between the two eyes, mine is nearly double that. But now I can read with my right eye again. It took some getting used to, but at least my eyes aren’t fighting each other any more.
But having glasses that need replacing every couple of years that cost a grand or so, plus varifocal lenses for another grand on top is a non starter.
I still don’t know how the HUD is supposed to work, on say Meta glasses, if you are wearing varifocals?
Edit: the Meta bit is about personalised ads versus non-personalised ads, payment can be an option, but they have to offer the free service without tracking the user all over the web, unless they opt in. Being opt in or pay is not an option under the laws as they stand, the free without tracking has to be an option.
The fines aren’t economic extortion, they are fines for not complying with the law. It is like a murderer comparing that incarceration is unfair, because he only killed people after all.
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Regarding the App Store and buying outside, I really don’t understand Alex.
“I don’t want to buy direct, I don’t want them to have my information.”
Fine, buy the app or the subscription in the App Store, those that want a bargain have the option to go direct. It doesn’t have to be either or, if it works properly, the app is in the Store and you can buy stuff direct through the Store, but if you wan’t to avoid the Apple vig, you can go outside and set up a payment relationship with the app developer directly.
So you have the option of “safe and private”, but a bit more expensive or you can go diect and save money, but have to have a direct relationship.
I do this with Waipu.tv, for example. I have a subscription through the store for 11.99€ a month, I could go direct and pay 9.99€ a month, with Netflix (with ads) included for 6 months, then it goes up to 11.99€. I stick with the App Store subscription, I can control it on a monthly basis, not with an annual commitment, with 3 months cancellation period.
The same with YouTube, I don’t have a payment relationship with Google, so I do it through the App Store, Netflix as well, but I have a payment relationship with Amazon, so I pay for Kindle Unlimited, Prime and Audible directly.
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Apple’s rules, currently, are that if an app is in a 3rd party store - it cannot be in the Apple App Store. Which is absolutely absurd. The whole idea of multiple stores is to allow a customer to find an app under the conditions that they specify. But Apple wants all-or-nothing. If you are in their store - you CANNOT be elsewhere. If you are elsewhere - you cannot be in their store.
Maybe with the recent decision from Judge Gonzalez Rogers, that situation may change.
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But we are talking about payments in the App Store or on the developer’s website, not an alt app store, although, as you say, that requirement from Apple is totally absurd as well.
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Gah! You’re right - I think I was conflating one part of the discussion with something else. Been a long day already. Thanks!
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Regarding the Watch, I’ve been wearing mine to bed for years. I put it on charge in the morning while drinking my coffee and reading the news.
It does do things like indicate when I am getting sick, my heart rate, when I sleep goes up often before I get symptoms. Likewise, my blood oxygen falls to around 95 before I start feeling symptoms, sometimes -the blood oxygen is probably the best new feature on the Watch 10 over my old SE.
My wife has a Watch for a while and wore it nights, but it annoyed her, because it kept waking her up, because her heart rate would be under 36bpm. She went to the doctor about it, but there was nothing wrong, she just has a naturally low heart rate - her Fitbit used to not record strenuous walks as training, because her heart rate rarely got out of the mid 70s, let alone into the 90s or hundreds.
A friend started wearing his at night and is now doing tests for sleep apnea and ECG irregularities.
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I can’t want to hear Alex’s take on this. /s
How long into the recording will we hear “just like the Apple TV,” 5 minutes?
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At least has hasn’t been talking about zero-rating anyone who releases on an alt-app store. Not that I think he’s stopped believing that - only that he doesn’t talk about it.
I wear my Ultra at night and charge it in the morning while showering or eating breakfast. I have it (and my iPhone) set with Sleep Mode from 11:00PM to 6:30 AM so I don’t get notifications on either at night, except for phone calls. I also have a low heart rate and some mornings I’ll see from 1 to 10 notifications that my heart rate dropped below 40bpm during the night. They just don’t wake me up since they’re silenced by the Sleep Mode. My cardiologist doesn’t seem concerned by the low heart rate.
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The same here, except that the only phone calls that will ring are from my wife, daughters and their partners, everything else is silent.
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